Telephone conversation with Dr. Maurice Visscher - March 17, 1966.
Dr. Dennis: I'm calling you about these new hearings that are coming up, and want to know whether you think I would be
of any use to you in connection with them and how you would suggest proceeding if you think the answer is yes.
Dr. Visscher: Well, I'll tell you. We're trying to find out exactly how the Committee intends to hold the hearings.
On Tuesday, day before yesterday, I had a conference with the man who is in charge, that is Mr., Cole, and he led me to believe
that what they were going to do is to give a half-hour each to each of the four groups who are supporting these bills and
give a half-hour apiece to the segments of the scientific population which has doubts about the two bills that are in the
Senate, and, of course, is proposing its own bill. Our bill that is in the back part of my testimony, with a few little changes
in wording, is now known as the Nelsen Bill and the number is HR 13406. This man Cole asked me how I thought it could be
arranged to have four different groups present material in a half-hour each, and he said he wanted one person to do most of
the presenting. He wouldn't object if there were one or two people as backups but he wanted to have the prime presentation
be by one person so that the Congressmen, or the Senators rather, would have plenty of time for interrogation and he insists
that all testimony that's going to be given be in his hands three days before the hearings so that he can assemble it
and. arrange for the abstraction of appropriate questions to suggest to the Senators that they ask.
Dr. Dennis: Who is Mr. Cole?
Dr. Visscher: He is the Clerk of the Committee.
Dr. Dennis: I see.
Dr. Visscher: Apparently Magnusson has given him carte blanche to organize it.
Dr. Dennis: What's your reaction to Magnusson?
Dr. Visscher: I don't know anything about his attitude on these scores.
Dr. Dennis: You know that there's a Magnusson Bill from last year.
Dr. Visscher: That was different.
Dr. Dennis: Yes, that's a different bill but if you can judge the man by the bill that bears his name, which is not necessarily
correct, it looks like a bill that was innocuous as far as we were concerned.
Dr. Visscher: Well, he has introduced into this session of Congress the Resnick Bill.
Dr. Dennis: Magnusson did.
Dr. Visscher: Yes. And this fellow Scott from Pennsylvania has introduced the Poage Bill into the Senate. Now obviously the
Resnick Bill is much better than the Poage Bill. The Poage Bill covers all vertebrate animals. Resnick himself has indicated
that he would be willing to have inspection of laboratories eliminated from his bill. He's not in the Senate, of course.
He's in the House, and I rather think that he would not object to having it cover animals used for whatever purpose,
I mean dogs and cats. It's limited to dogs and cats. You see, this is one of the features that we have to insist upon,
I think, that it does not focus upon interstate commerce simply for laboratory use.
Dr. Dennis: Well, what does this all boil down to?
Dr. Visscher; It boils down to this. That we don't yet know exactly how the hearings can be arranged because it depends
upon whether this fellow Cole, and I'm going to call him again this afternoon, is really going ahead with exactly the
kind of program he suggested to me. I had thought that I would ask, and have already discussed it a little bit with the people,
the two vice-presidents of NSMR, Hussey so to speak for the AMA and John Hirschbeck to speak for the AAMC.
Dr. Dennis: Hussey for AMA and Hirschbeck for AAMC.
Dr. Visscher: Now they are not sure that they can do it.
Dr. Dennis: Why?
Dr. Visscher: They've got other commitments that they just don't think they ought to break. Have you talked with
anyone in the New York State Society?
Dr. Dennis: Yes. I called Dr. Lowell Greenbaum today about it.
Dr. Visscher: And what did he have to say?
Dr. Dennis: Well, he was not very certain about what in the world it was all about. He said the testimony supposedly has to
be in three days ahead of time, as you indicated, and Magnusson apparently is going to ask certain people to testify. Folks
can offer if they want to but they have to be invited by the Chairman of the Committee if they're going to testify. He
indicated that the Nelson Bill had been submitted and he said it's identical to the bill which was in Greenbaum's
testimony and I guess in yours.
Dr. Visscher: Not quite. There were a few words different.
Dr. Dennis: Yes, but they're not objectionable, are they?
Dr. Visscher: One has to be different, yes. The thing we did not get in the bill as I put it in my testimony was the dealer
had to be a person who buys and sells. This had not been changed but Anker Nelson thought we should change it to buys and
sells instead of buys or sells. If the person isn't a dealer, if he is a farmer who sells one dog, you see.
Dr. Dennis: Yes, but the farmer buys dogs.
Dr. Visscher: The farmer can't sell a dog without being called a dealer in the Resnick and Poage bills.
Dr. Dennis: I see. It would make a difference, wouldn't it?
Dr. Visscher: It would make a lot of difference.
Dr. Dennis: What do you want me to do, Maurice?
Dr. Visscher: Well, now, let me ask you whether you could be available next Friday.
Dr. Dennis: I can't be available on Friday. I've introduced some business that will come up, I suspect, at the business
meeting of the American Surgical in Boca Raton that day, but I can be there on Monday.
Dr. Visscher: They've told me they want NSMR to be there on Friday.
Dr. Dennis: Well I can beg off and withdraw and leave the meeting and come up there if you think this is what I should do.
Dr. Visscher: Let me see if I can get someone else, Clarence.
Dr. Dennis: If help is needed, that's what I want to do.
Dr. Visscher: I'll be in touch with you. What's your best telephone number at the College?
Dr. Dennis: It's 270-1372, area code is 212. That's Centrex so it comes right through.
Dr. Visscher: I'll call you within 24 hours if we want you to break your other engagement. OK. Thanks for calling. Goodbye.