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The Clarence Dennis Papers

Phone Conversation with Dr. Lowell Greenbaum pdf (593,203 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Phone Conversation with Dr. Lowell Greenbaum
Number of Image Pages:
8 (593,203 Bytes)
1966-03-31 (March 31, 1966)
[Dennis, Clarence]
This item is in the public domain. It may be used without permission.
Medical Subject Headings (MeSH):
Animal Experimentation
Legislation as Topic
Exhibit Category:
Building a Department of Surgery at SUNY Downstate Medical Center, 1951-1972
Metadata Record Letter from Maurice B. Visscher to Clarence Dennis [20 January, 7 February 1966] pdf (138,274 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. [Walter] Riker (March 3, 1966) pdf (143,889 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. Maurice B. Visscher (March 3, 1966) pdf (93,806 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Testimony Given Before the Hearing of the House of Representatives Committee on Agriculture, Washington, D.C., Concerning Bill H.R. 12488 (Poage) and Bill H.R. 9743 (Resnick) (March 8, 1966) pdf (161,545 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. Maurice Visscher (March 17, 1966) pdf (209,992 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Phone Conversation with Dr. Maurice Visscher (March 21, 1966) pdf (79,709 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. Maurice Visscher (April 18, 1966) pdf (297,537 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. M. Visscher (May 18, 1966) pdf (314,340 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Re: Telephone conversation with Dr. Robert H. Williams (May 26, 1966) pdf (351,812 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone Conversation with Dr. Maurice Visscher (May 26, 1966) pdf (448,431 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. Lowell Greenbaum (June 6, 1966) pdf (181,513 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone Conversation - June 9, 1966 Lowell Greenbaum (June 9, 1966) pdf (441,911 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. Maurice Visscher (June 10, 1966) pdf (364,082 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record A Suggested Program for the National Society for Medical Research for 1966-7 [ca. 1966] pdf (499,699 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. Maurice Visscher - 6/16/66 - Wash. DC (June 16, 1966) pdf (165,527 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone Conversation - 6/20/66 (June 20, 1966) pdf (301,825 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Mr. Holt,/Washington, DC (June 22, 1966) pdf (286,622 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Mrs. Rosalie Earle, Executive Secretary of the New York State Society for Medical Research (July 21, 1966) pdf (182,359 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Phone talk with Visscher July 21, 1966 (July 21, 1966) pdf (227,664 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. Maurice Visscher (July 22, 1966) pdf (349,539 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Metadata Record Telephone conversation with Dr. Visscher and Dr. Dennis (August 5, 1966) pdf (226,809 Bytes) transcript of pdf
Box Number: 20
Folder Number: 5
Unique Identifier:
Document Type:
Physical Condition:
Series: Professional Activities, 1931-2003
SubSeries: National Society for Medical Research, 1962-1987
SubSubSeries: Animal Legislation, 1964-1984
Folder: Correspondence and Talk with Visscher and Others on Legislation, 1966-1968
Phone Conversation with Dr. Lowell Greenbaum - March 31, 1966.
Dr. Dennis: Hi, how did you fellows make out down there in Washington, last week, Lowell?
Dr. Greenbaum: It was wild, Clarence.
Dr. Dennis: Really?
Dr. Greenbaum: Really wild. Let me tell you this, first of all our Bill is being introduced this week by Congressman O'Brien from Albany.
Dr. Dennis: This is now different from the Mondale Bill.
Dr. Greenbaum: Oh Yes. This is the Bill that you remember - you got a Bill from our . . .
Dr. Dennis: I have a copy here.
Dr. Greenbaum: Yes. I just wanted to tell you that. Now the Poage Bill came out of Committee, this is on the House side, pretty bad.
Dr. Dennis: It did?
Dr. Greenbaum: Yes. Very bad.
Dr. Dennis: What the hell did they do to it.
Dr. Greenbaum: They made it worse then before the hearing, as a matter of fact.
Dr. Dennis: How did they happen to do that?
Dr. Greenbaum: Because they don't listen to what we tell them. This guy was completely sold with the Humane Society people. He completely bulldozed us.
Dr. Dennis: Well you know, I went over my data and I was complaining that I had sent in my testimony from last September and it wasn't in the booklet. It wasn't, I got a carbon copy here. It was sent to Poage the day following the hearings and letters dated four days later are in the written report, and I don't understand.
Dr. Greenbaum: Neither do I. But anyway what happened was in the full committee remember this is a subcommittee. In the full committee, the Minnesota boys chopped him up very badly, and the Bill came out at the present time which licenses dealers, it licenses medical schools to deal with the dealers, and that's about all. The Secretary of Agriculture is not in on the . . . not into the medical schools after the animals are delivered to the medical schools. And there is some record keeping by the medical schools which is O.K.
Dr. Dennis: There is no more than we have of the Metcalf-Hatch, is it?
Dr. Greenbaum: That's right. There's really no more than that although the bill did not come out like the Nelson Bill that we wanted (for all animals,) for all thievery, I think we just ought to turn our backs and let it go through - because who knows what we will get if we don't, you know.
Dr. Greenbaum: Well. Let me tell you a little bit more because I think it's very interesting. Now, on Thursday, this is before the hearings right? I went down and spoke to Senator Javitz' group, Senator Kennedy's group, Congressman O'Brien himself for two hours.
Dr. Dennis: That was March 24th.
Dr. Greenbaum: Yes. Right. And I tried to impress upon these people that the N.Y. State Society feels very certain that we need to have a good Bill in an important committee that's going to hear Bills on humane care later on in the year. Senator Javitz' group was very sympathetic and said that the Senator was in South America but they know he was looking for something along these lines. Congressman O'Brien told me immediately that he would be glad to introduce the Bill this week. He unfortunately got ill. He was supposed to be in Tuesday and I hope he introduces it today. We have a very good friend there, Clarence. Although he introduced a poor Bill, the Rogers Bill, unwittingly, he told me that he is furious with the Poage Bill; that the Poage Bill oversteps the bounds from agriculture into interstate foreign commerce by the fact that medical schools and hospitals are no damn business of the Secretary of Agriculture and they go licensing medical schools why the hell doesn't the Secretary of Agriculture come in and regulate the hospitals. He was furious. And he says if it comes to a floor fight, he says we will cut them down on that basis.
Dr. Dennis: Yes, it sounds good, What O'Brien is this?
Dr. Greenbaum: From Albany. He is a Congressman from Albany; he is the member next to the Chairman on the interstate foreign commerce committee that will hear the Bills on humane care in the laboratory.
Dr. Dennis: Well, that's nice.
Dr. Greenbaum: So we've got a real good man there, now. And he said that the Poage bill may find rough sledding in the House because it over-stepped its priority. You know, sort of the rules of the game. Well, anyway then we went in on Friday . . . I felt that was pretty successful and we went in on Friday to meet with Senator Magnuson and the Senators, and we ran into television cameras and klieg lights and before we know it Magnuson was up there raving and ranting about how we are going to throw in all the animals and we are going to teach these people who do research a lesson and we are going to have regulation of all the pets whether it's turtles or what and he went wild for three hours. He had the Humane Society of the United States up there for about an hour; he had Cleveland Amory up there for about an hour. He gave us the works.
Dr. Dennis: Well, did you folks get a word in edgewise?
Dr. Greenbaum: We got 20 minutes in.
Dr. Dennis: 20 minutes?
Dr. Greenbaum: That's right. Visscher got up there. He was harassed by Magnuson. Until Magnuson realized that we really weren't against legislation. You see, once again, Clarence, we were a little too little and a little too late. We didn't have a friend on that Committee. We didn't have a Bill into that Committee. We had nobody on that Committee as our friend, and they looked upon all of us who wanted to change the Bill as enemies. Well, when he got this across to him by real brute strength of just intuitiveness, because the man was being harassed, Magnuson calmed down considerably and said well we are not going to hurt you people, and so we left with people telling me what a great guy Magnuson was, and I said don't you believe these guys at all. I see nothing about a man who gives 3 hours to the Humane Societies and a half hour to us as being a great guy, with the television cameras going. Well, we were not put on on Friday despite the fact that people came from as far as Los Angeles and we all went home, or some of us stayed in Washington and we went right back on Monday. Now when we got there on Monday, the program had been considerably changed. The pressures had forced them to now put the scientists on, as the first group.
Dr. Dennis: I'll tell you what one pressure was. That I had dinner on Thursday evening with the Dr, Joel Baker from Magnuson's home state who knows Magnuson on a first-name basis and Barney Zimmerman and I pinned him down and Magnuson knew this guy on a first-name basis and didn't even know there was anything cooking. So he got on the telephone. He was not able to get through to Magnuson that night or before the hearings on Friday morning, but he got through to him after the hearings.
Dr. Greenbaum: Well, that might have changed the complexion.
Dr. Dennis: I hope that did some good, because here is a man that is a member of the American Surgical Association, and didn't even know that anything was cooking.
Dr. Greenbaum: This is the line of communication, you see. I'll tell you, I walked out of the hearing room at 1 o'clock, Clarence. I was sick. You know how you can feel sick when you don't get a fair shake. Well I was sick, and I went home and I threw away my testimony and they called on Helen Tausig, who is getting a little old now and she really can't put across her ideas too well, and she did a nice job. I brought with me the Head of the Columbia University's Animal business, Curator of Animal Husbandry up here. He is a very fine fellow, very knowledgeable, Ross Grey. Well, I had him sit down next to me and I took off my gloves and I just went at it and told them that they to understand what they are doing.
Dr. Dennis: You said this during the hearings?
Dr. Greenbaum: Yes, that was my testimony. Magnuson was not there. Monroney from Wyoming was now the Chairman, and Monroney apparently is the Humane Society man in that Committee, and I didn't know that. But in any case I told him point blank that our figures show that 200,000 animals are killed in New York State. This is a Senate College Committee, they should know the figures, you know. And that we get only 3,000 animals. By the way, your letter to the Times was read by McMahon of the HSUS and turned into a sword he claimed for their side.
Dr. Dennis: How so?
Dr. Greenbaum: Because he claimed that we only use 3,000 animals because the others are sick, and that's why I attacked this point very vigorously and I told him that we have facts and figures which I showed him from the ASPCA that 30,000 animals are illegally being put to death in this state, In New York City alone, and I went into details and said these people, I showed the Metcalf-Hatch Act which the HSUS had proclaimed to be a bad law and I explained to them in detail how animals are taken from the pounds only after six days of standing around and not being claimed - how the law says that the laboratory should be inspected and credited and how regulations are set up even for surgery, according to this law, and I said, there is nothing wrong with this . . . the only thing wrong with it is that these people don't want animals to be used for research purposes. And then I went into details and said it cost us a half a million dollars a year in the State, because instead of having to get our animals from the pound we have to get them from the dealers at $10 to $20 more an animal and figure it out, gentlemen, 20,000 animals times $20, is almost a half a million dollars. And I said that comes out of the taxpayers pocket and I told him about the cardiac pacemaker, that Mrs. Maglasella had, and how she lived a long life, although she just died recently, and I told him it took thousands of animals to perfect that device, and that thousands of their constituents are living today because of that device. And then went on to tell them that there is a black market, that it is not us who are causing the black market but the Humane Societies with their illegal procedures are blocking legal obtainment of animals from the pound.
Dr. Dennis: How can they say? Monroney says he doesn't agree. What did he have for facts?
Dr. Greenbaum: He had no facts. They went into dog napping in detail with me. I was on the stand for 20 minutes. I told them in ten years we've never had anybody in New York City or the State identify a stolen animal in one of our laboratories. He said, we know there's a big traffic. Where are the dogs if they are not in the laboratories. We said we know there is a big hunting business - you know, the hunting dogs are stolen and the breeding dogs are stolen, but we just don't see really any stolen animals in the laboratories. Well, they couldn't believe that. You see, this is a completely biased committee, Clarence.
Dr. Dennis: It sure is.
Dr. Greenbaum: There was one friend of ours. Senator Cannon from Nevada. He was very good, and he picked up these 30,000 animals that I mentioned and he used it all the way along the whole day asking each person how many animals were removed from the pounds in their states, etc., and I tell you our testimony held up like a rock. It was very obvious who the culprits were in this whole business.
Dr. Dennis: Do you think you convinced anybody?
Dr. Greenbaum: Well, I'll tell you this. When Brewer got up he was terrific this time. He was terrific. He said for 50 years in Chicago we can't find any dog-napped animals. They asked him how much he pays for animals. He said "nothing", from the pounds. They again put it to him - where are the animals going? He said I don't know. He said you people haven't given one fact that an animal has ever been stolen in the laboratories. In two days of hearings we haven't gotten one documented case. Well then Bernie Rich from California got up. He said we don't even have dealers because we have all our animals from the pounds. Well that shocked them a little bit. He said where can we get stolen animals from in California? Then they brought up Helen Jones, Head of the National Catholic Society for Animal Welfare, and the fellow who was questioning her was Senator Dominick from Colorado. He is again another Monroney kind of a guy. He said "Now Mrs. Jones we've heard these scientists testify that they have no kidnapped animals in their laboratories. Now, you please give us all the evidence so we can show how wrong they are." She couldn't Clarence. She said "I can't". She says so much of it that I can't document any one case. This was fantastic. And then we spent the rest of the time convincing them not to put in legislation in this law about regulation of animals in the laboratories; that it doesn't belong here, it's going to be fought out at a different level. It became very obvious that everyone of those men feel that there must be humane care of animals in the laboratories and that our bill is not going in any too soon. I think we timed it just - we were lucky that we had it ready,
Dr. Dennis: Do you think that your bill will go through?
Dr. Greenbaum: Not necessarily. O'Brien said this is a difficult business. He said you have to understand that the congressmen are not too - they don't care to get involved in the regulating of research if they don't have to, and that there is enough dissension on the Committee probably that nothing will come out. However, he said you never know what pressures may be exerted and the fact that you have a good bill here patterned after our state laws is very important; that if we do get pressured we have something that we can go to which will not restrict research.
Dr. Dennis: What's the number on your bill?
Dr. Greenbaum: We will know the number tomorrow morning if it's introduced today. It takes a day to get the number. Dr. Visscher is still clinging to the Roybal Bill apparently.
Dr. Dennis: I thought he decided that wasn't strong enough.
Dr. Greenbaum: Well, he doesn't have a bill, you see, so he has to go with that. He felt the NIH was coming out with a bill, but all our information is that it's not. I said to him I don't see any conflict; I mean, if the NIH comes out with a good bill we just forget about our bill and go with them, but at least we have something.
Dr. Dennis: Yes, but they welched on it.
Dr. Greenbaum: Of course, but he wouldn't admit that to me. But we know they did, and do you agree that it's best to have a proper bill in front of a strong committee?
Dr. Dennis: Yes, of course.
Dr. Greenbaum: We can't go in again like we did in that Magnuson Committee. We'll get murdered again. We had a terrible time on Friday. On Monday all of us got mad over the week-end and really gave it to them, but I don't think these hearings do a damn bit of good. If this guy Poage didn't listen to us, who is going to listen to us?
Dr. Dennis: Well Poage not only did that, he agreed he was going to do certain things and didn't do them. We have his statement in the record that he will include these things and here's one he didn't. There was nothing vituperative about it. It was perfectly straightforward and nothing that couldn't be sent through the mails.
Dr. Greenbaum: No. These men are very biased. That's the thing you learn about and they're only kept in check by other people who have the presence of mind to realize the country can't exist with all this bias.
Dr. Dennis: Say look, Lowell, I'm President of the Society for Vascular Surgery and have to give a presidential address in June, and I was going to use this for the bulk of it, and wake these cardiovascular surgeons up. They get lots of attention in the newspaper for everything else they do. They might just as well be fighting on this score.
Dr. Greenbaum: I'll be more than happy to cooperate and meet with you at any time to go over.
Dr. Dennis: Alright. Now let me do this. I've done something that I don't very often do. I've got a tape recorder and so that you don't have to say it all over again I've got what you told me on that. You know I tape telephone messages occasionally anyway, as I told you I believe.
Dr. Greenbaum: Right.
Dr. Dennis: I can use this for rough work and then sit down with you and find out that I have not put anything in there that's inaccurate. Can I do that?
Dr. Greenbaum: Fine. We can send you as much information as we can.
Dr. Dennis: I appreciate it. I thought I would try to get one other item - get hold of Ralph Rohweder and get the -
Dr. Greenbaum: He's out.
Dr. Dennis: Is he thrown out?
Dr. Greenbaum: Yes, he's out. Betty Shapiro is the one who can give you all the information. Mrs. Betty Shapiro is now Acting Executive Secretary.
Dr. Dennis: Is she going to stay in Washington?
Dr. Greenbaum: Yes. Do you have the Washington number?
Dr. Dennis: I need the number and I want the address.
Dr. Greenbaum: 1330 Massachusetts Ave., N.W. Tel. No. : 202-347-9565.
Dr. Dennis: So they finally threw Rohweder out?
Dr. Greenbaum: Yes, they threw him out fast.
Dr. Dennis: That's good. Dr. Rohweder was busy reorganizing his furniture during the last hearings. Do you yourself have any information? Rohweder claimed that he went to the court hearings about the dog stolen in Pennsylvania that ended up in a New York laboratory and that somebody swore the dog had not been stolen, he sold it for $5.00 because it was stealing chickens. Do you know about that?
Dr. Greenbaum: You mean that there was a legal end to this thing.
Dr. Dennis: Yes.
Dr. Greenbaum: The Harvard dog was legal too, you know.
Dr. Dennis: Yes, well now can I get positive evidence about that? Because I'd like to throw that into this talk.
Dr. Greenbaum: About the Harvard business?
Dr. Dennis: Yes.
Dr. Greenbaum: Yes, I think - I don't know the details on that again.
Dr. Dennis: Well . . . seemed so confused, I didn't even want to ask him.
Dr. Greenbaum: I think Brewer out in Chicago knows the details pretty well.
Dr. Dennis: Alright. And maybe Betty Shapiro might know.
Dr. Greenbaum: She would know.
Dr. Dennis: I'll call her first.
Dr. Greenbaum: Fine. Let me know of anything we can do to get this across. As a matter of fact, we may not have legislation this year, but I think a slide or two showing the fantastic number of bills and who introduced them from all over the country would really shake them up right to start with. I don't know if you have slides during a presidential address.
Dr. Dennis: Yes, I'm making them. I'm going to start off with a picture of Queen Victoria.
Dr. Greenbaum: Good. I've got a statue of her in one of my slides if you want.
Dr. Dennis: Can you send me a copy?
Dr. Greenbaum: It's a kodacolor. I'd have to get a copy of it for you.
Dr. Dennis: If you'd like to send it down I could get the copy made here.
Dr. Greenbaum: Alright. I will.
Dr. Dennis: That would be lovely.
Dr. Greenbaum: You look at it and see if that's what you want. I just took it last October in London.
Dr. Dennis: Thank you very much indeed.
Dr. Greenbaum: My pleasure. One other thing. Our boy in the Department of Medicine, Glaser, told me that he's trying to get the school interested in this a little bit more than they have been.
Dr. Dennis: They sure have not.
Dr. Greenbaum: And consequently if you think there should be a meeting or something like that and if you'd like me to come down and help out with information, etc., I'd be happy to do so.
Dr. Dennis: Thank you very much. Goodbye.
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